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	<title>Comments on: The Hamites and the Hitler</title>
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	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 01 May 2012 20:05:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25359</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25359</guid>
		<description>Unsanctified original sin, leading to the other things listed, given the Yankee&#039;s specific historical Sitz im Leben.

Anon-- we let your message through, though you used an improper email address. But that&#039;s only because we thought others might have the same question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unsanctified original sin, leading to the other things listed, given the Yankee&#8217;s specific historical Sitz im Leben.</p>
<p>Anon&#8211; we let your message through, though you used an improper email address. But that&#8217;s only because we thought others might have the same question.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon #439</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25322</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon #439</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2012 22:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25322</guid>
		<description>&quot;It was the Yankee’s soul that was the problem&quot;

What was the problem with the Yankee&#039;s soul?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It was the Yankee’s soul that was the problem&#8221;</p>
<p>What was the problem with the Yankee&#8217;s soul?</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25289</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25289</guid>
		<description>Ok Lee let&#039;s go point by point. We give one free lesson in critical thinking -- after that you have to pay.

#12. The point is simply that Ham has been highly selective in his presentation of evidence, and this is even more obvious after seeing your additional list of groups not mentioned. He pruned the evidence in such a way as to give superficial plausibility to his anti-evolution rhetoric. When the entire list is mentioned, not only does Ham&#039;s argument lose all its kick, but he sets himself up for the suspicion of being a dishonest man.

#13. On Lincoln, I&#039;ll stand by the summary given here:
http://butler-harris.org/archives/85
The quote you give, no matter how worn out, is certainly sufficient to prove that Lincoln did not wage war for the purpose of abolishing slavery. 

Note however that that is a quite different question as to whether &quot;if there had not existed slavery there would still have been a Civil War.&quot; You could also say, &quot;if there had not existed a tariff...&quot; or &quot;if the North was still dominated by Christians....&quot; etc. At SOME point, the answer will be no. But historical hypotheticals can only be speculated on.  I would rather suggest there is an organic connection between all these things. That is, the Yankee&#039;s willingness to exploit Americans in another region/susceptibility to abolitionist sophistry/abandonment of orthodox Christianity is all ONE problem, not many. It was the Yankee&#039;s soul that was the problem, not this that or the other heresy in isolation.

Whatever Lincoln&#039;s deep feelings about slavery were, we will perhaps never know, since he was the consummate opportunist and politician. However, I think we should certainly agree with his view, documented beyond dispute, that the Negro after emancipation should either be shipped back to Africa or, if he remains, occupy a subordinate position. I think some modern Confederates jump all over on Lincoln for this, but improperly. Yes, it shows the hypocrisy of Republican historiography, but still, Lincoln happened to be right on that point.

#14. How do you explain Lincoln waiting two years to issue it, and why did it not apply to areas (including those that never seceded) that were not &quot;in rebellion&quot;? See the essay referred to above for more information on this. No, if anything the Emancipation Proclamation proves that Lincoln was not a dogmatic abolitionist.

#15. Well Lee here we see your difficulty dealing with both minor and major premise in an argument.

First, I have read large sections in Mein Kampf and not come to anything about evolution or Charles Darwin, nor do I find either topic listed in the index. But I haven&#039;t read every single page, and perhaps the index is inadequate. Nevertheless, I&#039;m calling your bluff, or what I suspect is your bluff: please provide the page numbers and edition in which you claim to have found this discussion.

As I was flipping through the volume last night to check your point, I did find a section in which Hitler describes certain ways the Aryan is inferior, and the jew superior. I will be glad to supply you the page #s AFTER you give us the ones supporting your claim.

However, apart from the factual question, I already addressed your claim in the essay, saying &quot;If it turns out that H believed in evolution in point of fact, would that prove Ham’s thesis? No it would not. It is the logical entailment that is wrong with Ham’s analysis.&quot;  You are not grasping the analysis of entailment. Go back and read the essay more carefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok Lee let&#8217;s go point by point. We give one free lesson in critical thinking &#8212; after that you have to pay.</p>
<p>#12. The point is simply that Ham has been highly selective in his presentation of evidence, and this is even more obvious after seeing your additional list of groups not mentioned. He pruned the evidence in such a way as to give superficial plausibility to his anti-evolution rhetoric. When the entire list is mentioned, not only does Ham&#8217;s argument lose all its kick, but he sets himself up for the suspicion of being a dishonest man.</p>
<p>#13. On Lincoln, I&#8217;ll stand by the summary given here:<br />
<a href="http://butler-harris.org/archives/85" rel="nofollow">http://butler-harris.org/archives/85</a><br />
The quote you give, no matter how worn out, is certainly sufficient to prove that Lincoln did not wage war for the purpose of abolishing slavery. </p>
<p>Note however that that is a quite different question as to whether &#8220;if there had not existed slavery there would still have been a Civil War.&#8221; You could also say, &#8220;if there had not existed a tariff&#8230;&#8221; or &#8220;if the North was still dominated by Christians&#8230;.&#8221; etc. At SOME point, the answer will be no. But historical hypotheticals can only be speculated on.  I would rather suggest there is an organic connection between all these things. That is, the Yankee&#8217;s willingness to exploit Americans in another region/susceptibility to abolitionist sophistry/abandonment of orthodox Christianity is all ONE problem, not many. It was the Yankee&#8217;s soul that was the problem, not this that or the other heresy in isolation.</p>
<p>Whatever Lincoln&#8217;s deep feelings about slavery were, we will perhaps never know, since he was the consummate opportunist and politician. However, I think we should certainly agree with his view, documented beyond dispute, that the Negro after emancipation should either be shipped back to Africa or, if he remains, occupy a subordinate position. I think some modern Confederates jump all over on Lincoln for this, but improperly. Yes, it shows the hypocrisy of Republican historiography, but still, Lincoln happened to be right on that point.</p>
<p>#14. How do you explain Lincoln waiting two years to issue it, and why did it not apply to areas (including those that never seceded) that were not &#8220;in rebellion&#8221;? See the essay referred to above for more information on this. No, if anything the Emancipation Proclamation proves that Lincoln was not a dogmatic abolitionist.</p>
<p>#15. Well Lee here we see your difficulty dealing with both minor and major premise in an argument.</p>
<p>First, I have read large sections in Mein Kampf and not come to anything about evolution or Charles Darwin, nor do I find either topic listed in the index. But I haven&#8217;t read every single page, and perhaps the index is inadequate. Nevertheless, I&#8217;m calling your bluff, or what I suspect is your bluff: please provide the page numbers and edition in which you claim to have found this discussion.</p>
<p>As I was flipping through the volume last night to check your point, I did find a section in which Hitler describes certain ways the Aryan is inferior, and the jew superior. I will be glad to supply you the page #s AFTER you give us the ones supporting your claim.</p>
<p>However, apart from the factual question, I already addressed your claim in the essay, saying &#8220;If it turns out that H believed in evolution in point of fact, would that prove Ham’s thesis? No it would not. It is the logical entailment that is wrong with Ham’s analysis.&#8221;  You are not grasping the analysis of entailment. Go back and read the essay more carefully.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Johnson</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25272</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 02:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25272</guid>
		<description>Finally, you say that Aryan mixture with Jews is an argument one could make &quot;with or without evolution.&quot;  The problem is Hitler DID make that point using evolution as his evidence for making it.  Are you aware of the fact that Hitler was a proponent of eugenics and evolution?  That he was an ardent admirer of Charles Darwin?  Have you read Mein Kampf?  You need to so you will know what Hitler believed about evolution.  He believed the Aryan race was evolutions next leap forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally, you say that Aryan mixture with Jews is an argument one could make &#8220;with or without evolution.&#8221;  The problem is Hitler DID make that point using evolution as his evidence for making it.  Are you aware of the fact that Hitler was a proponent of eugenics and evolution?  That he was an ardent admirer of Charles Darwin?  Have you read Mein Kampf?  You need to so you will know what Hitler believed about evolution.  He believed the Aryan race was evolutions next leap forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Johnson</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25271</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 02:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25271</guid>
		<description>How do you explain the Emancipation Proclamation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you explain the Emancipation Proclamation?</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Johnson</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25270</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 02:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25270</guid>
		<description>On another note, are you saying the Civil War was not waged with the intent of freeing slaves?  Are you apt to quote that worn out line about Lincoln saying &quot;if I could preserve the union without freeing a single slave I would do so?&quot; - leaving out the balancing portion of that quote which reads &quot;and if I could preserve the union and free all the slaves I would do so.&quot;  Lincoln was always an abolitionist.  It was always on his mind to free the slaves.  If not, how do you explain the Lincoln/Douglas debates where Lincoln insisted that if the document which states &quot;all men are created equal&quot; is untrue, &quot;then let us destroy that document...but if it is true, then let us live by it.&quot; sic 
Do you mean to say that if there had not existed slavery there would still have been a Civil War?  You should really consider research before going off half cocked the way you did.  Your writing is snide, insulting and lacks serious objectivity.  You sound flat out mad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On another note, are you saying the Civil War was not waged with the intent of freeing slaves?  Are you apt to quote that worn out line about Lincoln saying &#8220;if I could preserve the union without freeing a single slave I would do so?&#8221; &#8211; leaving out the balancing portion of that quote which reads &#8220;and if I could preserve the union and free all the slaves I would do so.&#8221;  Lincoln was always an abolitionist.  It was always on his mind to free the slaves.  If not, how do you explain the Lincoln/Douglas debates where Lincoln insisted that if the document which states &#8220;all men are created equal&#8221; is untrue, &#8220;then let us destroy that document&#8230;but if it is true, then let us live by it.&#8221; sic<br />
Do you mean to say that if there had not existed slavery there would still have been a Civil War?  You should really consider research before going off half cocked the way you did.  Your writing is snide, insulting and lacks serious objectivity.  You sound flat out mad.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Johnson</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-25269</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 02:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-25269</guid>
		<description>Ham doesn&#039;t mention homosexuals in particular because in reality Hitler did not have much of a problem with them as a group.  In fact, his best friend, head of the SA Ernst Rhoem, was a notorious homosexual.  Party members tried to get Hitler to censure Rhoem and Hitler wouldn&#039;t do it saying, &quot;let&#039;s not waste time being squeamish about the morality of some men.&quot; see The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer.  He only began persecuting homosexuals when it became politically expedient to do so, and when it looked as though he was being inconsistent with his racial theories.   Homosexuals were a small minority, much smaller than the Jews, and were not the main target of Hitler&#039;s racial policies.  Hitler did not rail against homosexuals in Mein Kampf as he did the Jews.  Page after vitriolic page is filled with sinister attacks against the Jews.  If you wish to stand up for persecuted homosexuals why don&#039;t you just do so and leave Ham out of it?  Why do you feel inclined to attack him?  Are you opposed to him standing up for the rights of Jews and Gypsies?  I don&#039;t see your reasoning behind attacking him.  Ham also neglected to mention Hitler&#039;s persecution of the Catholic Center Party and the Social Democrats, Trade Unionists, Communist party, etc.  Does that mean you are against all those groups?  Is it Ham&#039;s responsibility to name and define every group Hitler persecuted?  If he did it wouldn&#039;t leave much room for the main body of his commentary, a fact you would know had you done your homework.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ham doesn&#8217;t mention homosexuals in particular because in reality Hitler did not have much of a problem with them as a group.  In fact, his best friend, head of the SA Ernst Rhoem, was a notorious homosexual.  Party members tried to get Hitler to censure Rhoem and Hitler wouldn&#8217;t do it saying, &#8220;let&#8217;s not waste time being squeamish about the morality of some men.&#8221; see The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer.  He only began persecuting homosexuals when it became politically expedient to do so, and when it looked as though he was being inconsistent with his racial theories.   Homosexuals were a small minority, much smaller than the Jews, and were not the main target of Hitler&#8217;s racial policies.  Hitler did not rail against homosexuals in Mein Kampf as he did the Jews.  Page after vitriolic page is filled with sinister attacks against the Jews.  If you wish to stand up for persecuted homosexuals why don&#8217;t you just do so and leave Ham out of it?  Why do you feel inclined to attack him?  Are you opposed to him standing up for the rights of Jews and Gypsies?  I don&#8217;t see your reasoning behind attacking him.  Ham also neglected to mention Hitler&#8217;s persecution of the Catholic Center Party and the Social Democrats, Trade Unionists, Communist party, etc.  Does that mean you are against all those groups?  Is it Ham&#8217;s responsibility to name and define every group Hitler persecuted?  If he did it wouldn&#8217;t leave much room for the main body of his commentary, a fact you would know had you done your homework.</p>
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		<title>By: danielj</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-15883</link>
		<dc:creator>danielj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2011 05:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-15883</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;He needs a theory to account for the persecution of all the groups that were persecuted.&lt;/i&gt;

Brilliant.

I wish I was smart as you. This philosophy degree is kicking my butt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>He needs a theory to account for the persecution of all the groups that were persecuted.</i></p>
<p>Brilliant.</p>
<p>I wish I was smart as you. This philosophy degree is kicking my butt.</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-14092</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Nov 2010 23:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-14092</guid>
		<description>Joel,
1. It is not your place to tell people to &quot;keep their thoughts to themselves&quot; on our blog. Is this chutzpah?
Hard-hitting analysis, probing questions are in bounds; issuing commands is not.
2. &lt;i&gt;Jew&lt;/i&gt; does not need to be capitalized any more than &quot;black&quot; or &quot;white.&quot; It is a racial, not religious designation. Most jews are atheists, in fact, unless worship of self counts as theism.
The proper contrast to jew is not &quot;Christian&quot; but rather &quot;gentile.&quot;  This is how jews divide the world. And in the kikenpress lexicography, jew is capitalized while Gentile is not. Consider the leader to a CBN interview here:
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/JewishRoots/Neither_Jew_Nor_Gentile.aspx
&quot;you will learn the significance of Yom Kippur, the most important holiday in the Jewish year; God&#039;s desire to see Jews and gentiles united; and Israel&#039;s link to revival. &quot;
This is outrageous and we will need to re-train ourselves to think correctly by, for a time, upper-casing Gentile and lower-casing jew. This will fix the problem. It is kind of like having to recrease an envelope.
3. As to your being &quot;suspicious,&quot; suspicious of what? Surely not the dreaded A-word! I think we have exploded that concept adequately -- you can do a search.
Merely announcing that you are suspicious is not very helpful, except perhaps to your future biographer, if he happens to be reading this blog. But it is actually not even going to be a very interesting footnote in your biography unless reasons, distinctions, clarifications are made -- indeed, the very kind of clarity of thought that you so quickly demand of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel,<br />
1. It is not your place to tell people to &#8220;keep their thoughts to themselves&#8221; on our blog. Is this chutzpah?<br />
Hard-hitting analysis, probing questions are in bounds; issuing commands is not.<br />
2. <i>Jew</i> does not need to be capitalized any more than &#8220;black&#8221; or &#8220;white.&#8221; It is a racial, not religious designation. Most jews are atheists, in fact, unless worship of self counts as theism.<br />
The proper contrast to jew is not &#8220;Christian&#8221; but rather &#8220;gentile.&#8221;  This is how jews divide the world. And in the kikenpress lexicography, jew is capitalized while Gentile is not. Consider the leader to a CBN interview here:<br />
<a href="http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/JewishRoots/Neither_Jew_Nor_Gentile.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/JewishRoots/Neither_Jew_Nor_Gentile.aspx</a><br />
&#8220;you will learn the significance of Yom Kippur, the most important holiday in the Jewish year; God&#8217;s desire to see Jews and gentiles united; and Israel&#8217;s link to revival. &#8221;<br />
This is outrageous and we will need to re-train ourselves to think correctly by, for a time, upper-casing Gentile and lower-casing jew. This will fix the problem. It is kind of like having to recrease an envelope.<br />
3. As to your being &#8220;suspicious,&#8221; suspicious of what? Surely not the dreaded A-word! I think we have exploded that concept adequately &#8212; you can do a search.<br />
Merely announcing that you are suspicious is not very helpful, except perhaps to your future biographer, if he happens to be reading this blog. But it is actually not even going to be a very interesting footnote in your biography unless reasons, distinctions, clarifications are made &#8212; indeed, the very kind of clarity of thought that you so quickly demand of others.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Peterson</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2009/10/the-hamites-and-the-hitler/comment-page-1/#comment-14080</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Nov 2010 00:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1009#comment-14080</guid>
		<description>What are you saying, Shotgun? Be more clear or keep your thoughts to yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are you saying, Shotgun? Be more clear or keep your thoughts to yourself.</p>
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