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	<title>Comments on: The Proposed OPC Directory for Worship</title>
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	<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-11053</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-11053</guid>
		<description>It bears mentioning also that certain areas where the existing document actually could stand improvement have not been improved.

1. There is the unjustified and unwarranted statement in III.8, &quot;Nothing in the preceding sections shall be understood so as to prohibit ruling elders from leading in public prayer, reading the Scriptures, leading responsive readings, or, on occasion, exhorting the congregation as part of public worship.&quot;

This statement retains the distinction of ministerial ordination as bestowing executive function of Presbytery, reflecting the principle of the holy catholic church, but only in the sacraments and benediction, while giving it away in other areas, without showing evidence of having reflected deeply on the matter, especially given that it is an innovation from the original order. 

It would be well to excise this section. instead, the proposal goes even farther.

2. There are more people in the world than infants and adults. Some kind of majority/minority distinction could more properly be made in respect to baptism.

3. The reception of members by letter of transfer could have shored up the concept of fraternal relation as the proper manner of &quot;recognizing churches of like faith,&quot; rather than leaving this decision up to each Session acting autonomously. This would have given real teeth to the proper view of ecumenicity and holy catholic church. 

4. The question of fencing could be stiffened. On the one hand, the current book says &quot;no one shall be allowed to take part in the celebration of the sacrament of the Lord&#039;s Supper who has not first made public profession of faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour and Lord.&quot; (V.4) On the other hand, the rule for self-fencing in IV.C.2 not only does not mention the need to have made public profession, but does not provide any criterion by which the elders could exercise the rule of V.4, since self-fencing is proffered without intervention of the eldership. It even leaves unsettled whether membership as such is actually something necessary or important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It bears mentioning also that certain areas where the existing document actually could stand improvement have not been improved.</p>
<p>1. There is the unjustified and unwarranted statement in III.8, &#8220;Nothing in the preceding sections shall be understood so as to prohibit ruling elders from leading in public prayer, reading the Scriptures, leading responsive readings, or, on occasion, exhorting the congregation as part of public worship.&#8221;</p>
<p>This statement retains the distinction of ministerial ordination as bestowing executive function of Presbytery, reflecting the principle of the holy catholic church, but only in the sacraments and benediction, while giving it away in other areas, without showing evidence of having reflected deeply on the matter, especially given that it is an innovation from the original order. </p>
<p>It would be well to excise this section. instead, the proposal goes even farther.</p>
<p>2. There are more people in the world than infants and adults. Some kind of majority/minority distinction could more properly be made in respect to baptism.</p>
<p>3. The reception of members by letter of transfer could have shored up the concept of fraternal relation as the proper manner of &#8220;recognizing churches of like faith,&#8221; rather than leaving this decision up to each Session acting autonomously. This would have given real teeth to the proper view of ecumenicity and holy catholic church. </p>
<p>4. The question of fencing could be stiffened. On the one hand, the current book says &#8220;no one shall be allowed to take part in the celebration of the sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s Supper who has not first made public profession of faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour and Lord.&#8221; (V.4) On the other hand, the rule for self-fencing in IV.C.2 not only does not mention the need to have made public profession, but does not provide any criterion by which the elders could exercise the rule of V.4, since self-fencing is proffered without intervention of the eldership. It even leaves unsettled whether membership as such is actually something necessary or important.</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10863</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10863</guid>
		<description>Doug -- in general the practical question of &quot;what to do?&quot; is less interesting to me, at least on this subject. Many of the startup groups that seem to be more sound are actually illegitimate splinter groups which have an organic problem therefore that goes much deeper than their &quot;pure distinctives&quot; for example. That is, should one become a hyper-congregationalist as the price to pay for purity of worship?

Historically, the situation can be nicely modeled by the thought experiment that I gave earlier of Scripture-reading versus devotional-reading. Probably a church that first relaxed the former to allow the latter would lead to a church split, with the seceders claiming to be the faithful continuation. And I would tend to agree with them. But suppose in God&#039;s providence a century later MOST churches that took a stand for orthodoxy in every other respect had accommodated themselves to the innovation: instead of a weekly reading from Scripture, they had a reading from Lewis, Augustine, or even Scripture. Would we then boycott and insist on starting a church that only read from Scripture? Probably not, but perhaps the matter could start to be discussed anew using the thought-experiment as it might reduce the emotional element. There is at a strong analogy that allows illustrating relevant factors nicely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug &#8212; in general the practical question of &#8220;what to do?&#8221; is less interesting to me, at least on this subject. Many of the startup groups that seem to be more sound are actually illegitimate splinter groups which have an organic problem therefore that goes much deeper than their &#8220;pure distinctives&#8221; for example. That is, should one become a hyper-congregationalist as the price to pay for purity of worship?</p>
<p>Historically, the situation can be nicely modeled by the thought experiment that I gave earlier of Scripture-reading versus devotional-reading. Probably a church that first relaxed the former to allow the latter would lead to a church split, with the seceders claiming to be the faithful continuation. And I would tend to agree with them. But suppose in God&#8217;s providence a century later MOST churches that took a stand for orthodoxy in every other respect had accommodated themselves to the innovation: instead of a weekly reading from Scripture, they had a reading from Lewis, Augustine, or even Scripture. Would we then boycott and insist on starting a church that only read from Scripture? Probably not, but perhaps the matter could start to be discussed anew using the thought-experiment as it might reduce the emotional element. There is at a strong analogy that allows illustrating relevant factors nicely.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10824</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10824</guid>
		<description>T - good point - there are certainly thin edge of the wedge issues concerning instrumental music in practice today.  Of course there is some such music in almost every protestant church these days, so that those that don&#039;t have it now usually are the ones also who are not going to introduce it anytime soon either - they survive as denominations that actually reject the prevalent practice.  I say if you are not going to go noninstrumental anytime soon (as most of us will not), let&#039;s encourage sound thinking about the subject as much as we can where we are planted.

So, I would prefer that a church that has instrumental music just have it as a circumstance of worship.  I make no claim at all that my own congregation, for example, adheres to the position I would prefer.

If you have a church that makes use of accompaniment in larger meetings, but if there is no accompaniment they don&#039;t seem to think anything is wrong with that and sing praise heartily - then they pretty much have it right, I think.  I have had some experience of the Heritage Netherlands Reformed denomination, and that appears to be their approach to music.

Maybe this is putting the cart before the horse, but I do not want to end up thinking that I cannot worship with any group that (1) sings uninspired hymns and (2) uses instrumental music.  I could very easily theologize myself out of being able to attend church anywhere in my state of residence - and then I would be stuck with the the delightful duty of trying to start such a group in a territory where there is almost zero interest in such issues (thus, very little prospect that such a group would be sustainable).  (I have seen a couple of small works try to start and then fold after a time - it ain&#039;t pretty.)

Of course it is more than just &quot;I don&#039;t want to go that route.&quot; - I think there are sound reasons against such a view, perhaps to be mentioned in another post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>T &#8211; good point &#8211; there are certainly thin edge of the wedge issues concerning instrumental music in practice today.  Of course there is some such music in almost every protestant church these days, so that those that don&#8217;t have it now usually are the ones also who are not going to introduce it anytime soon either &#8211; they survive as denominations that actually reject the prevalent practice.  I say if you are not going to go noninstrumental anytime soon (as most of us will not), let&#8217;s encourage sound thinking about the subject as much as we can where we are planted.</p>
<p>So, I would prefer that a church that has instrumental music just have it as a circumstance of worship.  I make no claim at all that my own congregation, for example, adheres to the position I would prefer.</p>
<p>If you have a church that makes use of accompaniment in larger meetings, but if there is no accompaniment they don&#8217;t seem to think anything is wrong with that and sing praise heartily &#8211; then they pretty much have it right, I think.  I have had some experience of the Heritage Netherlands Reformed denomination, and that appears to be their approach to music.</p>
<p>Maybe this is putting the cart before the horse, but I do not want to end up thinking that I cannot worship with any group that (1) sings uninspired hymns and (2) uses instrumental music.  I could very easily theologize myself out of being able to attend church anywhere in my state of residence &#8211; and then I would be stuck with the the delightful duty of trying to start such a group in a territory where there is almost zero interest in such issues (thus, very little prospect that such a group would be sustainable).  (I have seen a couple of small works try to start and then fold after a time &#8211; it ain&#8217;t pretty.)</p>
<p>Of course it is more than just &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to go that route.&#8221; &#8211; I think there are sound reasons against such a view, perhaps to be mentioned in another post.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliza</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10799</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10799</guid>
		<description>The demand for unaccompanied singing has always been difficult for me to prove biblically. I think you (T) have the right approach. If a violin or piano or what have you, is used to help people carry the tune, then it seems acceptable. But both need to be careful not to overwhelm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The demand for unaccompanied singing has always been difficult for me to prove biblically. I think you (T) have the right approach. If a violin or piano or what have you, is used to help people carry the tune, then it seems acceptable. But both need to be careful not to overwhelm.</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10792</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10792</guid>
		<description>Father -- I can&#039;t really follow you in all your implications, but what I abstract from your comment in connection with this post is the inescapability of a national settlement for de jure worship. And people need to ponder this more deeply I submit.

Doug -- I think then that we need to distinguish two classes of instrumental accompaniment, one of which is merely circumstantial, and the other verging into a qualitative element. Extend the notion of the pitch pipe a bit. Suppose the people are saying, &quot;we just can&#039;t get this tune.&quot; Maybe the pastor then says, &quot;ok, Jim is going to play the melody on the piano -- listen as he plays and sing with it.&quot;

Flash forward five years. The same tune has come up, only now, a wall-shaking organ creates a sense of ecstasy, while at the same time drowning out the sound of anyone singing except myself. Has it not morphed into being an element of worship? At the very least, it has CHANGED an element from what it once was -- i.e. I no longer am singing as part of a congregation. I have been made an island. However, I think the emotionally evocative tendency of instrumental music does at least push it in the direction of being a separate element, even if it is not always fully actualized as such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Father &#8212; I can&#8217;t really follow you in all your implications, but what I abstract from your comment in connection with this post is the inescapability of a national settlement for de jure worship. And people need to ponder this more deeply I submit.</p>
<p>Doug &#8212; I think then that we need to distinguish two classes of instrumental accompaniment, one of which is merely circumstantial, and the other verging into a qualitative element. Extend the notion of the pitch pipe a bit. Suppose the people are saying, &#8220;we just can&#8217;t get this tune.&#8221; Maybe the pastor then says, &#8220;ok, Jim is going to play the melody on the piano &#8212; listen as he plays and sing with it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Flash forward five years. The same tune has come up, only now, a wall-shaking organ creates a sense of ecstasy, while at the same time drowning out the sound of anyone singing except myself. Has it not morphed into being an element of worship? At the very least, it has CHANGED an element from what it once was &#8212; i.e. I no longer am singing as part of a congregation. I have been made an island. However, I think the emotionally evocative tendency of instrumental music does at least push it in the direction of being a separate element, even if it is not always fully actualized as such.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. John</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10780</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10780</guid>
		<description>How the mighty have fallen. I used to laugh when members of the OPC called themselves &#039;the Orthodox Pharisees Church,&#039; but at least the makeup of the communicants fulfilled the dictum a Greek Orthodox friend of mine now says, when it comes to &#039;mixed marriages&#039; - &quot;If I can say, &#039;same face, same race&#039; I consider the marriage to be a good one.&quot;

My time in the OPC was with a mix of Scots, English, and Germans, with the odd duck Greek family thrown in! But AT LEAST, we were all Europeans. Now, it seems, the OPC is going the way of the Babelists as well.....

mene, mene, tekel upharsin.
At least I can still sing the songs out of the Blue Trinity Hymnal, which was a damn fine book! I&#039;d rather remember Machen&#039;s last stand for christendom by that, and the WCF, Rushdoony, and Francis Schaeffer, than the Anfernee Bradley&#039;s of the current ilk....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How the mighty have fallen. I used to laugh when members of the OPC called themselves &#8216;the Orthodox Pharisees Church,&#8217; but at least the makeup of the communicants fulfilled the dictum a Greek Orthodox friend of mine now says, when it comes to &#8216;mixed marriages&#8217; &#8211; &#8220;If I can say, &#8217;same face, same race&#8217; I consider the marriage to be a good one.&#8221;</p>
<p>My time in the OPC was with a mix of Scots, English, and Germans, with the odd duck Greek family thrown in! But AT LEAST, we were all Europeans. Now, it seems, the OPC is going the way of the Babelists as well&#8230;..</p>
<p>mene, mene, tekel upharsin.<br />
At least I can still sing the songs out of the Blue Trinity Hymnal, which was a damn fine book! I&#8217;d rather remember Machen&#8217;s last stand for christendom by that, and the WCF, Rushdoony, and Francis Schaeffer, than the Anfernee Bradley&#8217;s of the current ilk&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Latimer</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10608</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Latimer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 05:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10608</guid>
		<description>Hi, I was reading your blog review of this proposed document.  In general I find myself in sympathy with most of your strictures, and especially it is good to hear somebody expressing a care that in our OPC the psalms only position should remain on an equal footing with the contrary position.
 
Now about music and this part:
 
2.e “Musical gifts are properly used in public worship to assist the congregation in its worship of God… No person may take a special part in the musical service unless he is …” (535-538)
 
My own position - I am not for the covenanter or Girardeau position that instrumental musical accompaniment is unlawful in itself as a circumstance of worship.  Nevertheless, I think we do need to preserve the principle that it is only a circumstance of worship not an essential.  Too many times in the PCA, I experienced people being reluctant to sing praise at all if, for example, there was no pianist present.
 
I think, more than you do I suspect, that the proposed 2.e preserves this balance.  It is more explicit in stating that the whole reason for there being this use of musical gifts is merely to assist the congregation in its offering praise.  (If accepted, that wording could put a question mark on for example a soloist singing with the congregation just listening, which the current directory language seems to allow.  Sometime revisions actually represent a theological advance.)  The proposed 2.e does not go so far as to assert that every congregation needs this assistance on every occasion - the mind-set I saw among some in the PCA.  In like manner diaconal ministry exists in large measure to assist needy Christians, but that we have deacons does not imply that every member needs diaconal assistance.
 
Also, it just speaks of musical gifts without asserting that these are necessarily of instrumental music.  The RPCI (Irish covenanters) are entirely noninstrumental, yet they recognize musical talent in the form of church choirs.  Similarly the Free Church in Scotland is (almost?) entirely noninstrumental to this day, yet it is very common for them to have a musically talented precentor lead the congregational singing of praise.
 
For these reasons I would not need to take exception to proposed 2.e, though there are other parts of the proposed book that I would have to take exception to. 
 
--Doug</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I was reading your blog review of this proposed document.  In general I find myself in sympathy with most of your strictures, and especially it is good to hear somebody expressing a care that in our OPC the psalms only position should remain on an equal footing with the contrary position.</p>
<p>Now about music and this part:</p>
<p>2.e “Musical gifts are properly used in public worship to assist the congregation in its worship of God… No person may take a special part in the musical service unless he is …” (535-538)</p>
<p>My own position &#8211; I am not for the covenanter or Girardeau position that instrumental musical accompaniment is unlawful in itself as a circumstance of worship.  Nevertheless, I think we do need to preserve the principle that it is only a circumstance of worship not an essential.  Too many times in the PCA, I experienced people being reluctant to sing praise at all if, for example, there was no pianist present.</p>
<p>I think, more than you do I suspect, that the proposed 2.e preserves this balance.  It is more explicit in stating that the whole reason for there being this use of musical gifts is merely to assist the congregation in its offering praise.  (If accepted, that wording could put a question mark on for example a soloist singing with the congregation just listening, which the current directory language seems to allow.  Sometime revisions actually represent a theological advance.)  The proposed 2.e does not go so far as to assert that every congregation needs this assistance on every occasion &#8211; the mind-set I saw among some in the PCA.  In like manner diaconal ministry exists in large measure to assist needy Christians, but that we have deacons does not imply that every member needs diaconal assistance.</p>
<p>Also, it just speaks of musical gifts without asserting that these are necessarily of instrumental music.  The RPCI (Irish covenanters) are entirely noninstrumental, yet they recognize musical talent in the form of church choirs.  Similarly the Free Church in Scotland is (almost?) entirely noninstrumental to this day, yet it is very common for them to have a musically talented precentor lead the congregational singing of praise.</p>
<p>For these reasons I would not need to take exception to proposed 2.e, though there are other parts of the proposed book that I would have to take exception to. </p>
<p>&#8211;Doug</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10622</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 19:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10622</guid>
		<description>Thanks much, T! Helpful as always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks much, T! Helpful as always.</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10621</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 18:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10621</guid>
		<description>Jim -- there is a lot of anger or maybe just frustration in your post. We&#039;ll have to unpack your &quot;issues&quot; slowly, one by one as time goes on. For starters, however, beware of the lure of quick &quot;numbers&quot; which in reality are not numbers at all. Philadelphia still has 1.5 million, just in the city limits. Who&#039;s kidding whom?

What if the faithful church is reduced to 100 total world-wide at one point in history? Would that be an argument to dilute the message, stop demanding that people really repent, and change, including in the areas mentioned by Joshua?

We all feel the pressure to get the axe-murderer to see the sin of murder and repent of that before he moves on to drunkenness. But in another sense, this is not true. It may be that the totality-presentation of his sin is exactly what the axe-murderer needs to be confronted with. It may indeed be that his sinful use of birth control or sending his kids to be demoralized and corrupted at a government school is just exactly what he needs to hear about in order for the nest of rebellion to come undone, including the for-him more peripheral issue of axing people to death.

It is not for us to say. It is ours to be faithful.

Joshua -- your questions do relate to the HCC series so don&#039;t hesitate.

First, if there is an OPC in your town, by all means transfer over, if it would mean an improvement.

The principles I have been laboring to deduce regarding origin and succession mean that an individual cannot start a church, and a remnant should not pretend to be the &quot;successors&quot; of a church unless something judicial happens, preferably getting kicked out for orthodoxy or orthopraxis. However, for the individual, especially in America, there are a number of strands of HCC that can be recognized, even though we lament the diversity. The parish system is the ideal, but we have to layer a number of principles. There might be a Missouri Synod church, pretty good, one block over, and an OPC five miles away. That creates a real decision that has to be thought through.

The principles I have been highlighting will govern when if ever a church can &quot;split off,&quot; but the situation for an individual is a little different, provided one does not stoop to one of the non-churches. To be sure, the negation of easy splitism have consequences for the individual and family as well: once these principles are understood, there will be a lot less church-hopping and more fortitude, more slugging things out, more attempts at reconciliation, than we see now. However, given the lack of national settlement in America, and other issues, there is still some argument for lateral transfer, and faithfulness of the leadership is one criterion. Some self-examination is naturally called for, to make sure you would not be doing it for the usual, and wrong reasons: a preference for more entertainment, laxness, sympathy with someone that got in trouble, a grudge against someone, and so forth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim &#8212; there is a lot of anger or maybe just frustration in your post. We&#8217;ll have to unpack your &#8220;issues&#8221; slowly, one by one as time goes on. For starters, however, beware of the lure of quick &#8220;numbers&#8221; which in reality are not numbers at all. Philadelphia still has 1.5 million, just in the city limits. Who&#8217;s kidding whom?</p>
<p>What if the faithful church is reduced to 100 total world-wide at one point in history? Would that be an argument to dilute the message, stop demanding that people really repent, and change, including in the areas mentioned by Joshua?</p>
<p>We all feel the pressure to get the axe-murderer to see the sin of murder and repent of that before he moves on to drunkenness. But in another sense, this is not true. It may be that the totality-presentation of his sin is exactly what the axe-murderer needs to be confronted with. It may indeed be that his sinful use of birth control or sending his kids to be demoralized and corrupted at a government school is just exactly what he needs to hear about in order for the nest of rebellion to come undone, including the for-him more peripheral issue of axing people to death.</p>
<p>It is not for us to say. It is ours to be faithful.</p>
<p>Joshua &#8212; your questions do relate to the HCC series so don&#8217;t hesitate.</p>
<p>First, if there is an OPC in your town, by all means transfer over, if it would mean an improvement.</p>
<p>The principles I have been laboring to deduce regarding origin and succession mean that an individual cannot start a church, and a remnant should not pretend to be the &#8220;successors&#8221; of a church unless something judicial happens, preferably getting kicked out for orthodoxy or orthopraxis. However, for the individual, especially in America, there are a number of strands of HCC that can be recognized, even though we lament the diversity. The parish system is the ideal, but we have to layer a number of principles. There might be a Missouri Synod church, pretty good, one block over, and an OPC five miles away. That creates a real decision that has to be thought through.</p>
<p>The principles I have been highlighting will govern when if ever a church can &#8220;split off,&#8221; but the situation for an individual is a little different, provided one does not stoop to one of the non-churches. To be sure, the negation of easy splitism have consequences for the individual and family as well: once these principles are understood, there will be a lot less church-hopping and more fortitude, more slugging things out, more attempts at reconciliation, than we see now. However, given the lack of national settlement in America, and other issues, there is still some argument for lateral transfer, and faithfulness of the leadership is one criterion. Some self-examination is naturally called for, to make sure you would not be doing it for the usual, and wrong reasons: a preference for more entertainment, laxness, sympathy with someone that got in trouble, a grudge against someone, and so forth.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://firstword.us/2010/01/the-proposed-opc-directory-for-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10615</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 11:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstword.us/?p=1318#comment-10615</guid>
		<description>Joshua,
If you denomination is &quot;completely covenant breaking... &quot; than why are you asking if it is still safe for you to still eat with them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua,<br />
If you denomination is &#8220;completely covenant breaking&#8230; &#8221; than why are you asking if it is still safe for you to still eat with them?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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